i’m not commanded to do anything but to love

Robert Krulwich: Here is for you the hardest thing. I was just trying to think about how difficult this must be. You have been… Your life has been saved by her. She is, in effect, your savior. And yet your belief is that unless she accepts Jesus, that in some sense she is outside of grace and you know, I don’t know what you believe about hell and heaven, but that she might be punished. So what do you do about this weird combination. She’s insisting nope, not for me and you’re insisting oh no, this is the way it is and oh my gosh… Is it hard for you?

Jim Munroe: No, not at all.

RK: Okay

JM: And I’ll tell you why because it’s not my place to do that. I am very sorry to everyone who listens to this who ever feels like they got judged by a Christian because it’s never their place to do that. And this is where I think most of the times and everybody listening to this podcast is placed as kind of positioned or pigeonholed Christians and what they don’t understand is that I’m not commanded to do anything but to love and to start conversations, right? I’m not the one. I’m not the one who was sent into the world to judge, alright? But what I… so… putting it like that - i know where you want to go with this…

RK: No, this is I’m asking an honest question. You have to love the judge that may not love the woman who saved your life. That’s hard, I think.

JM: Yeah but at the same time it’s… That’s not what I’m.. that’s not my place.

Soren Wheeler: I have to say I think that we were sort of expecting that maybe sharper edge to the differences between JIm and Jennell. But the truth is, in the room that night Jim and Jennells conversation and thus their story start to feel like some kind of allegory, not for any particular religion, or moral code, but for a way of how to move through the world and hold your differences but still be one.

RK: Let me just finish this way. Do you have a sense between the two of you? Because obviously you stay very very good friends. I mean that’s obvious. Is there some...  Something that either of you can say that explains why you can dignifyingly but emphatically disagree and still stay in such extraordinarily close touch?

Jennell Jenney: I think the idea of humility and, as Jim might even say grace, is absolutely essential, no matter your tenets of belief. And that’s really what’s going to get you through conflict so yeah…

RK: And is it because you’re in this big ocean of the world and the two of you are just little little dots in there and so whatever you think it’s still you’re in a big ocean and there you are together? Is that the…

JJ: I think maybe yeah.

JM: Yeah. And…

RK: Do you have her bigness thing? Do you feel small?

JM: Do I feel small?

RK: Yeah

JM: I feel tiny. Humility at its root word it comes… The root is humos. Which means dirt. So when you become humble you become dirt.

RK: That’s better than the sea analogy, I think…

JM: I could keep going. You know, what god does with dirt is he creates things, but I won’t go there. But we become dirt, and I think where we get hung up is that we want to be right. And that hasn’t been brought into this yet. And right and wrong are… The words right and wrong I think in relationship are deadly words. I think saying I’m right, you’re wrong is not good for relationships. I think it’s…

RK: And have you ever said you’re right or you’re wrong to her?

JM: No.

JJ: I haven’t said it to him either, I don’t think.

JM: Never

RK: Well that’s a nice place to land.

JM: I think so.

"Match Made in Marrow," Radiolab. November 9, 2017. 

This piece was reported by Latif Nasser.  It was produced by Annie McEwen, with help from Bethel Habte and Alex Overington.

When you face someone’s insults, hatred, whatever… look at his soul. Get inside him. Look at what sort of person he is. You’ll find you don’t need to strain to impress him. 

But you do have to wish him well. He’s your closest relative. The gods assist him just as they do you – by signs and dreams and every other way – to get the things he wants.

Marcus Aurelius

Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. Modern Library. 2003. P.123, Book 9, #27. Also see The Internet Classics Archive | The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius (mit.edu)

Once, and this is a simple example, I was in charge of our stake play. As with all things theatrical, time was pressed, rehearsals tense, and resources inadequate. We were to have our final run-through at the stake center, but lines got crossed and a stake leadership meeting began gathering in the chapel. Suddenly we were told we would have to move, but final run-throughs really need to happen on the actual stage. I could feel the morale of my troupe flagging as they felt all their time and effort was being disrupted and disrespected. The stake leaders wanted an inspirational play, but insisted on taking the room on dress rehearsal night? 

I had been studying about God and paradox, and to look for Him when two contradictory or seeming opposed ideas presented themselves as truth, like faith and works, or "don't eat the fruit" and "multiply and replenish the earth." In this very concrete situation, I said a little prayer and then stood back to see what God would do. I believed God thought both were important, and a way would be shown to transcend. It was.

The actors dispersed to side rooms to run through music numbers while the priesthood session used the needed larger chapel to begin. Then the leaders dispersed to the smaller rooms for sessions, and the actors returned to the main stage. It was simple, yet when folks were at loggerheads with tempers rising and both insisting they needed the larger rooms, the solution could not be seen. 

It was a wonderful object lesson for me. The rooms, the time frames, were always there, but hidden by our pride, no one saw them. Yet, with just a little softening, just a little nod that both needs were legitimate, an answer was easily found. 

I pondered that in my heart. The visual was of myself as a pin dot on the earth, limited in what I could see and God looking down on the pin dot that was earth ion the universe, seeing all. From God's viewpoint, human contradictions were often resolved just by telescoping out. God transcends paradoxes. 

Shari Siebers Crall

Living on the Inside of the Edge by Christian Kimball. Common Consent Press. 2023. p. 287, 288